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Disscution about how to fix the imbalances in the system

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Disscution about how to fix the imbalances in the system

Post by Neko Miale on Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:13 pm

[18:22] <Tusjecht> Let's agree to have a plain discussion, then.
[18:22] <@Miale> Allright. First I want to know what you demand Gaddy
[18:23] <lightninggadget> I demand a fair system, not an unbalanced one.
[18:23] <@Miale> Then, Explain precisely what you think makes this system so unbalanced.
[18:24] <@Miale> And then, I'd like you to give out your opinion on how it could be solved.
[18:24] <lightninggadget> I have already gone over this but I will repeat it
[18:25] <lightninggadget> right now as the formulas stand, we calculate direct vs armor for non system skills (basic attacks, like punches, kicks etc)
[18:26] == Opt_ [webchat@3702296a.3d6b14e3.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #MialeMansion
[18:26] <lightninggadget> and we calculate overall attack vs overall defense for system skills (damage moves that consume KG or other gauges like ammo)
[18:26] * Tusjecht itches to correct the above misunderstanding.
[18:26] == Opt_ has changed nick to Bunt
[18:26] <@Miale> Do it, Tus.
[18:26] <Tusjecht> Bunting: [07:23] <lightninggadget> I have already gone over this but I will repeat it [07:24] <lightninggadget> right now as the formulas stand, we calculate direct vs armor for non system skills (basic attacks, like punches, kicks etc)
[18:27] <Tusjecht> The error is in Gadget's first sentence.
[18:27] <Tusjecht> DEF applies by default no matter what the situation is now.
[18:28] <Tusjecht> Even if you have a Bad matching, only your SDF gets reduced, so your DEF will drop by a certain amount.
[18:28] <Tusjecht> This amount is proportional to the amount of points placed in SDF.
[18:28] <lightninggadget> and Def is calculated by adding Armor and Special Defense
[18:29] <Tusjecht> Correct, so.
[18:29] <Tusjecht> I used to object against DEF being *always* the defending stat, but i have now changed the rules for you.
[18:30] <lightninggadget> no you didn't Tusjecht
[18:30] <Tusjecht> So now a high SDF can now always result in a high DEF.
[18:30] <Tusjecht> Unrelated note, don't type out my name in full, or the reply written is only visible to me.
[18:30] <@Miale> I see it
[18:30] <Tusjecht> ? M'kay then.
[18:31] <lightninggadget> all you did was just make it pointless to have two different types of attacks
[18:31] <@Miale> brb sowwy
[18:31] <Tusjecht> By which I take it to mean, that clarification you posted on my poll?
[18:31] <Tusjecht> That example was already misrepresented, I stress, not flawed.
[18:32] <lightninggadget> it still is flawed. You still add Armor and Special Defense together when they shouldn't be
[18:33] <Tusjecht> Because as I defined it, DEF is overall defense.
[18:33] <Tusjecht> Sum of both the armour density and special characteristics, if any.
[18:33] <Tusjecht> I am not twisting the logic, I am bringing it further.
[18:34] <@Miale> I'm a bit lost atm
[18:35] <lightninggadget> you are twisting the logic tusjecht you refuse to believe that your thick armor isn't immune to special attacks. It's been proven that the thickness of armor does not block electricity it just makes it stronger
[18:35] <Tusjecht> Attacking can be separated into System skills and non-sytem skills by logic.
[18:36] <Nakara> I have to agree with Tus, most skills would include armour
[18:36] <Tusjecht> But the case isn't so clear cut for defending, that why I have to design it so.
[18:37] <@Miale> So now what i get is that Gaddy is saying that in some cases the defence should be made by only SDF or AMR and it should be pointed out?
[18:37] <Tusjecht> Do you have to have a system skill to spell out "You can parry an attack by blocking it with your arm?"
[18:37] <Bunt> hmmm
[18:37] <Bunt> How about we make it
[18:37] <Bunt> so instead of defense/armor resistance it's endurance like I suggested in chatbox
[18:37] <Tusjecht> Gadget wants an FF-style system, pairing physical offense and defense, and special (usually magic) offense and defense.)
[18:37] <Bunt> and make armor phys/special resistance some sort of modifier
[18:38] <Tusjecht> I'm considering that.
[18:38] <Bunt> tbh I think Gadget's idea is nuts
[18:38] <Tusjecht> But I think both Gadget and I want this resolved first.
[18:38] <Nakara> Its not a bad idea system wide changes like that should be avoided if possible though I think
[18:38] <@Miale> Delivery is there, sorry I need to go put the stuff in place
[18:39] <Tusjecht> Continuing from where I left off.
[18:39] <lightninggadget> look I don't care if you all don't change the system what I'm saying is to leave my conduction attack alone.
[18:39] <Tusjecht> Since you don't logically need a skill to defend against attacks, then, the assumption could then be that the overall defense against all attacks takes priority.
[18:40] <Tusjecht> This is much simpler than having to figure out the different cases for magc and physical.
[18:40] <lightninggadget> then let's just have one attack stat and one defense stat
[18:40] <Tusjecht> BB replaces magic with special techniques, but it doesn't change the case much.
[18:41] <Bunt> isn't magic in BB just summon lightning or whatever
[18:41] <Bunt> and then the attack has RL properties
[18:41] <Tusjecht> And the distinction to be made here is rather, System skills and non-system skill. (I am now answering your latest propostion)
[18:42] <Tusjecht> As you yourself have pointed out, a yellow with high SKL is supposedly weak because his punching power is weak.
[18:42] <Tusjecht> Therefore, there is the *non-system skill* aspect to attacking that has to be taken into account too.
[18:43] <lightninggadget> yes but that doesn't mean thick armor, should block his special attack
[18:43] <Tusjecht> Yellow Radio is made to *not* fight physically at all, even if he appears to be able to hold his own against Black Lotus.
[18:44] <Tusjecht> Wait please, while I finish my piece.
[18:44] <Tusjecht> If one is weak physically, then the system encourages you to leverage on your system skills to fight.
[18:45] <Tusjecht> If you're strong physically, then relative to the reds and yellows, you can punch as well as they shoot or confuse.
[18:45] <Tusjecht> The difference is their attack affinity, not how well they do in the same task.
[18:46] <Tusjecht> As I've stated, special attacks/skills refer to active skills, aka KMs.
[18:46] <Tusjecht> If you're referring to lightning attacks, as you have been forawhile, then the case now is about defending.
[18:46] <Tusjecht> I need to go off, probably won't be back until lunch.
[18:47] <Tusjecht> Mia, create a thread in OOC or something
[18:47] <Tusjecht> Pls copy paste all.
[18:47] <@Miale> Ok but can i ask a question
[18:48] <@Miale> Following what i just read, wouldn't the yellow have like no damage output unless he does KMs @.@
[18:48] <lightninggadget> yep.
[18:48] <lightninggadget> and even them are weakened because of high armor
[18:48] <Nakara> Looking at Yellow Radio he doesn't have damage even WITH KMs
[18:49] <@Miale> Then how the fuck would he have gotten at lvl 9
[18:49] <Nakara> Point of yellows is to cripple the opponent then chip away at their health over time as I understand
[18:50] <Nakara> With illusions like his he could easily hit someone and run around for half an hour with illusions covering him
[18:51] <@Miale> I do get that but how would they get KG whern their str isn't even good to break stuff normally
[18:52] <Bunt> well
[18:52] <Bunt> you saw how Crow can use his wings
[18:52] <lightninggadget> because yellows may have special moves that are indirect but you'll notice that Yellow Radio had a very nice baton
[18:52] <Bunt> even in he has no KG himself
[18:52] <Bunt> also Yellow Radio has two abilities
[18:52] <Bunt> Acrobatics
[18:52] <Bunt> and Equilibrium
[18:52] <@Miale> Radio most likely got his staff from a dungeon
[18:53] <Bunt> so in a straight up battle, he can probably dodge your attacks
[18:53] == Tusjecht [webchat@1da97c9.11de379d.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 363 seconds]
[18:53] <Bunt> while you charge up the terrain damage bonus for both of you
[18:53] <Bunt> alternatively
[18:53] <Bunt> just take enough damage to use your special skill
[18:53] <Bunt> it's another legit tactic Crow uses frequently
[18:55] <@Miale> while you charge up the terrain damage bonus for both of you < whut?
[18:55] <lightninggadget> ...
[18:58] <lightninggadget> Miale, I have done the math and I showed people what happens when you use one stat in two calculations of moves. That one stat becomes the key stat and everyone will want to put points in there to have the same amount of power
[18:58] <lightninggadget> for us that key stat is Armor. People with high armor will block both non-skill attacks and skill attacks
[18:59] <@Miale> Ok, Either I'm really stupid or you guys aren't clear for two cents
[19:00] <lightninggadget> Miale I will post what I mean in the out of character box. It's too big to be posted on a chat like this
[19:00] <@Miale> Go for it
[19:00] <Nakara> Special def is used for two calculations too though now
[19:01] <@Miale> But at this point, wouldn't just boosting one do the same?
[19:01] <lightninggadget> yep and that's my point
[19:01] <@Miale> Like, SDF varies for some atk and AMR doesn't
[19:01] <@Miale> But just boosting one would yeild similar results
[19:01] <lightninggadget> what I want is for Armor not to affect Skills, and Special defense not to affect direct
[19:02] <Nakara> But that ruins a lot more than it fixes
[19:02] <lightninggadget> have direct affect armor and skill affect special defense.
[19:02] <@Miale> But then, let's say the Killer move is a physical systerm move
[19:02] <Nakara> The vast majority of the time armour WOULD effect special moves
[19:02] <Nakara> Electricity is just an odd ball
[19:03] <Nakara> Personally I think that the current system should be used and exceptions made on a case by cases basis
[19:03] <lightninggadget> and I will agree to that
[19:04] <lightninggadget> but Tusjecht won't he doesn't want his high armor to count for nothing
[19:04] <lightninggadget> he's wants to be able to block everything
[19:04] <lightninggadget> that is how he designed it for his own gain
[19:04] <@Miale> I pretty much agree to special cases stuff
[19:06] <lightninggadget> I'll be just fine with my conduction move staying as is (Skill vs Special Defense)
[19:06] <Nakara> I think that would be a logical way of handling the move
[19:07] <Nakara> It simply makes the assumption that def gained by the extra armour is equal to the damage gained by increased conductivity
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Re: Disscution about how to fix the imbalances in the system

Post by Destination on Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:31 am

So I've reviewed several things before making my reply: Gadget's calculations of two sets of stats for the same punch,, the chat history above, Nakara's findings on electrical resistance and current, as well as yesterday's chatbox archives.

Let me set something clear first.

This isn't only about Lightning Gadget vs Green Guardian. I am not perfect and be able to filter out every loophole in a character sheet. In this particular fight, I was paying much more attention to the stats than usual and that is where I discovered the difference in thought.

If you think this is a personal attack on Lightning Gadget, it is not. This is to set a precedent for future DAs that also use elemental attacks or the likes.

And if you go so far as to believe that I was merely bugged by the fact that I would suffer a lot of damage to Conduction, then I've got nothing to say. Believe what you believe, I am more interested in why you want to set SDF to defend only against SKL / AMR to defend against DIR.

Consider a larger issue; so what if I allow this change through? There tons of attacks that aren't physical: freezing, heating, electrical, illusion, long-range, stage trapping and so on. If the case for electricity is justified, then I also need to adjust the system for Alice Frost and her freezing attacks. I also need to account for Flame Marksman's sniping. And where does Violet Repulse's Shadow Break fall into then, being neither light nor elemental?

If I allow one special case for electricity, I have to allow for all cases for the above.

I have stated above now, the key stat (if you so call it that way) is now DEF. You can boost either AMR or SDF to increase DEF, yes. But.

  • For every case for both chromatic and metal colours, DEF is the default defending stat. You can now save yourself from a strong attack with high SDF.
  • AMR has the restriction of being inversely proportional to AGI, but SDF isn't.


Your arguments that AMR defends against system skills and non-system skills is outdated because now it isn't AMR that takes the brunt of the blow, it's now both SDF and AMR.

Now that covers defending, onto your KM, Conduction.

It is my fault from the start to not have stated clearly enough that system skills must, and without exception, using ATK as the attacking stat.

It is also my fault from the start to not have stated clearly enough after countless revisions and edits that in every situation, without exception, DEF is the defending stat. What values that go into it is a different matter that is already covered in Attacking and Defending.

So now, the question is no longer about keeping Conduction as it is. By these rules, it must change. Specifically, drop the part where you state it is Gadget's SKL vs other's SDF.

It is not because I was 'bugged' that my poor SDF cannot block your skill.

Exceptions have been made for defending now, and I will be loathe to make even more for attacking.

Alternatively, we take up Bunting's suggestions, or go the full length and redesign a new, simple system: the previous one being used.


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Re: Disscution about how to fix the imbalances in the system

Post by Destination on Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:49 am

Gadget wrote:Tusjecht you just don't get it do you. Forget anything about type of attacks or any thing about the attacks themselves look at the basic numbers and formulas

Whenever you add two stats together to get an overall stat. You make it pointless to have those two individual stats in the first place.
Perhaps now then, I see your real point.

With the old system which you had no complaints about, everything was a straightforward Melee/Ranged Prowess vs Defense. So a Yellow with high enough Melee Prowess can hit just as hard as a Blue with the same Melee stat.

With the new system that places an upper limit on the 'melee prowess' of Yellows, you're now complaining that a Yellow's punch no longer can be as powerful as it could have been under the new system.

Is this your point?

Gadget wrote:If all damage calculations are going to be comparing an overall attack stat to an overall defense stat, then it is pointless to have Direct, Armor, Skill or Special Defense.

Instead of focusing on the attacks run different numbers through your system and if you can't find the glaring unbalance like I have then there is nothing I can say or do any further.
Then, that's exactly what I'll do, as you say.

Player one: Klein Apprentice. Pure direct attacking type, armed with a wooden sword.
  • DIR: 50 | AMR: 30 || STR = 80
  • SKL: 10 | SDF: 10 || TAC = 20
    ATK = 60, DEF = 40.

    -Normal Move: slash with his sword. Affinity: blunt impact.
    -Special Move / KM: Heaven Earth Break, cost 30%, boost in attack power (ATK) by 1.5x. Affinity: blunt impact.


Player two: Lemon Persona. Pure Indirect technique type, armed with a wand made of an unknown material.
  • DIR :10 | AMR: 10 || STR = 20
  • SKL: 50 | SDF: 30 || TAC = 80
    ATK = 60, DEF = 40.

    -Normal Move:  Stun, touch opponent with the tip of the wand, reduce AGI by half for 5 seconds. Affinity: energy.
    -Special Move / KM: Personalise Blue, cost 30%. Debuff opponent's AMR and DIR by half for 2 mins, deals damage over same period, effect does not stack. Affinity: energy.


So, almost like your example sheets so far, though I note that you arranged the stats in an all-or-nothing type, leaving zero in your other stat. Demonstrating is one thing, taking an extreme is another...

Gadget wrote:Look he has the same overall attack power and overall defense but if he tries to do a physical attack (punch, kick) he can't deal any damage because it's direct vs armor.
As stated already, it's not DIR vs AMR, it's *always* ATK vs DEF now.

Gadget wrote:So how come a guy with no special can deal a special type of attack but someone without physical can't even punch a guy. They have the same overall attack and defense but the physical player has more moves at his disposal that have the same amount of power he can punch and kick (uses direct) and shoot an energy burst. (uses overall attack which is special plus direct)

So a physical fighter has both physical and special moves at his disposal while a specialist is limited to just special moves, and if that doesn't make the specialist upset, he'll even be more pissed when even his special moves do nothing because the physical player can withstand against even his special moves because of his physical armor
Let me explain why your example is flawed: at Level 1, a melee specialist is exactly that; pure melee moves, no 'energy' moves available. Your example of him having 'an energy burst' attack at Level 1 is completely off the mark.

So then, you proceeded to compare the damage dealt, pairing DIR and AMR, SKL and SDF.

I think I realise another assumption you make.

'Special' attacks include Electrical, Acid, Light, Water, Ice, Fire, and other attacks of the likes.

'Normal' attacks are punching, kicking, shooting guns, whips, etc.

This is a fundamental error I can't avoid correcting:
  • Normal moves are passive skills, either attacking the opponent or applying effects elsewhere. They may not consume KG, and when they do, it is 'consume over time' style.

  • Special Moves are active skills, and without exception deal an effect to the opponent, not necessarily dealing damage. (Demonic Commandeer, 100% gauge and no direct damage to Crow). They consume KG in one shot.


So now I will compare Apprentice and Persona's skills, applying the new exceptions for defending as stated here in Attacking And Defending.

So now, Apprentice now executes his moves.
    =====
  • Normal Move:
    Apprentice's ATK (B) vs Persona's DEF (C). Persona recieves 15%, because Matching for Persona is assumed to be a Mismatch.
  • Special Move:
    Apprentice's ATK (B) vs Persona's DEF (C). Persona receives 20% damage, because HEB multiplies his ATK by 1.5 -> ATK is now 90 points, B+ rank. Same Mismatch as above.
    =====


Persona now executes both her moves.
    =====
  • Normal Move:
    Persona's ATK (B) vs Apprentices's DEF (C). Apprentice receives 15%, he is stunned for 10s. Matching for Apprentice is a Mismatch (energy vs Blunt): his SDF is unchanged.
  • Special Move:
    Persona's ATK (B) vs Apprentice's DEF (C). Apprentice receives 15% damage, his STR is halved for 12 self-posts. Matching for Apprentice is Mismatch (Energy vs Blunt): his SDF is unchanged.




So that's for my rules. Let's play by yours, if you insist.

Apprentice:
Normal Move: (Direct to Armor) B rank to D rank: 20%
Special Move: (Skill to Special Defense) D rank to C rank: 5%

Persona:
Normal Move: (Direct to Armor) D rank to C rank : 5%
Special Move: (Skill to Special Defense) B rank to D rank: 20%.

I have practically copied and pasted your attacking formula from the poll thread.

Analysing both sides, while it seems by numbers that Apprentice trumps Persona for comparing KMs, three things must be taken into account:


    One: Persona has also stunned Apprentice, or halved his AMR and DIR. In both cases, Apprentice is on the losing end, because either he moves slower / can't move at all for a self-post, even if he takes just 15% from the KM, he has to contend with 12 self-posts of reduced strength and armour protection. If Persona has a tag-battle partner, things can get nasty.

    Two: Because Persona has only 10 points in AMR, she can afford to put more points into AGI, allowing her to dance beyond the reach of Apprentice's wooden sword. Effectively, she has the numbers backing her dodging of attacks.

    Three: a 5% margin between KMs is not a lot. 5% is easily lost or gained with simple whacks and blows.


Gadget wrote:Do the math, Tusjecht, DO THE MATH.
I did the mathematics, both my system and yours. That's all...

Edit: Erroneously paired Appren's SKL with Persona's SKL, Persona's SKL with Appren's SKL. The errror has now been corrected such that Appren's SKL -> Persona's SDF and Persona's SKL -> Appren's SDF.


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Re: Disscution about how to fix the imbalances in the system

Post by Destination on Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:26 pm

Y'know, let's take a closer look at your system, Gadget.

Apprentice:
Normal Move: (Direct to Armor) B rank to D rank: 20%
Special Move: (Skill to Special Defense) D rank to C rank: 5%

Persona:
Normal Move: (Direct to Armor) D rank to C rank : 5%
Special Move: (Skill to Special Defense) B rank to D rank: 20%.

This system favours close-range types using their normal moves, and favours ranged & indirect types to use their KMs, because if you can't get past the AMR of Blues and Greens, whack their special defense then.

In other words, the KMs of Blues and Greens are next to useless against Yellows if they have SDF any higher than B rank. Likewise, the normal moves of Yellows and Reds are useless against B-rank and above AMR...

...is what I'd like to say, but:
Tusjecht wrote:Normal Move: Stun, touch opponent with the tip of the wand, reduce AGI by half for 5 seconds. Affinity: energy
The thing that isn't reflected in your stats system is the above. So what if a Yellow's normal moves deal a pittance in damage; they can stack nasty special effects on that hard numbers don't reflect.

Blues and Greens can whack all their normal moves for little to no cost, but if they can't get close to the agile, skilled Yellows, then that is the balance.


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Re: Disscution about how to fix the imbalances in the system

Post by Zagrin on Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:52 am

Affinities, kids, that's how the world works: You can't stand an equal chance against everybody, and so sometimes some people have barely a chance of winning when matched against certain other people. In this case, Gadget against high defense dudes, perhaps there's other, but none seem to mind too much to argue on a system change about it, cause they realize they won't stand an equal chance against every type of stat make up on the site, and let's not go into the various killer moves/abilities and the like that can also play into affinities! So in closing, stop beating a dead horse already!

I will say that their should perhaps be a minimum damage of 1% for NORMAL moves, not system moves or w/e you call them now, y'know, just a punch or kick.
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Re: Disscution about how to fix the imbalances in the system

Post by Royal Duke on Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:28 am

Zagrin you are the best.
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Re: Disscution about how to fix the imbalances in the system

Post by Destination on Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:39 am

As much as Zagrin can make up stuff, he is not wrong.

Blues beat up Reds at close range. Reds can carpet bomb their way through the illusions of Yellows (refer to Scarlet Rain versus Crypt Cosmic Circus...all of five seconds and easily a quarter of his legion was killed with a single hit). And Yellows, as Lucky Lunatic vs Diamond Dash have demonstrated, can lead Blues by the nose into the traps they set up.

The reverse is also true: At long ranges, Reds can camp and snipe Blues. Blues beat the weakly armoured Yellows to a pulp. And Yellows confuse Reds until they don't know who to shoot at.

The pure affinities, therefore, display a rock-paper-scissors relationship that can even be reversed depending on the situation; and because it can change, then that could possibly not be called 'balanced.'

And while characters can be balanced, whether they're balanced when compared to other characters is a completely different issue altogether. Sometimes the stage favours those who lay traps and illusions. Sometimes the mooks get their break in the Ocean Stage and swim freely when others drown (Coral Merrow and Lagoon Dolphin). Still more avatars use their special skills, or pair up with a player holding a complementary skill to form an army of two (Frost Horn and Tourmaline Shell).

Brain Burst is fair when it gives you your avatar, but no one said it would remain that way when you actually head out to fight. Even if you know everything about yourself, its just half the battle won.

That said, I wonder exactly how much of this will be acknowledged anyway. Even if there is a small hope...then, I'll leave my thoughts here.

八字不合 is quote of the day again...


Signature added by Tusjecht
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Rebuild Thread progress: 2/5 posts completed
To do: Rulebook, possible FAQ.
Lore: Fill up the story and integrate with current system of avatars.
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Re: Disscution about how to fix the imbalances in the system

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